Creatine
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I started to give my German Shepherd creatine about 5 months ago. He is a working dog and I read that this would increase his muscle strength. He is also on a raw meat, vegetable diet. He has been very healthy, but I found several tumors on him that just appeared almost over night. My question is, could creatine cause these tumors? I am not sure if they are tumors but, they are like fatty growths, 3 of them. We had the vet do a biopsy on them and nothing showed up as far as them being cancer nor did it show that they were fatty tumors. I am trying to go over everything that this dog has taken as far as supplements and this is the only one I am not sure of.
Thank you,
Linda
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| I can't comment on the issue whether or not the creatine is causing the tumors on your dog. However, I do question why you think your dog needs creatine in the first place. You stated he is a working dog. I can't imagine what kind of work he does that he needs more muscle/strength. If your dog has a good, healthy diet, he should not need supplements that are designed for humans. Human physiology is not the same as other animals. So, there can be different reactions to different chemicals/medications/etc..
You mentioned that you are giving him other supplements. I shudder to think what you might be doing.
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| First, let me say that I am not a vet or a physician. I am a lowly computer tech who has studied nutrition on my own for the past 12 years. I have found many interesting nutrition facts, especially on different animals.
Dogs are not raw meat eaters. I don't know where you got the idea of feeding your dog raw meat, but I suggest you stop. If a vet told you, I would stop taking your dog there.
Let's start with a little logic. Do you ever watch those nature shows where they show tigers and lions eating a dead animal? Did you ever notice that most of the time, they just lick the raw meat right off the bones instead of knawing it off? If you've ever had a typical house cat lick you, it doesn't feel quite right, does it? All animals in the cat family have a VERY coarse tongue. Why? Because nature intended them to eat raw meat. That very coarse tongue allows them to lick raw meat right off the bone. Dogs don't have that tongue. Guess why? Because the diet nature set aside for them does not include raw meat.
But if that didn't convince you, try this. One very accurate way scientists can figure out an animals diet, is by examining their stomach muscles. Members of the cat family (especially in the wild...tigers, lions, panthers, etc) have EXTREMELY tight, thick, and short stomach muscles. This allows them to properly digest raw meat. Dogs stomach muscles are loose, long and narrow, not intended for raw meat. I would hate to have your dog's stomach cramps! Which, by the way, he won't tell you about. I've been around German Shepards my entire life and a stomach cramp is not something they whine and complain about. It takes a lot more pain than that to get a German Shepard to whine.
Bottom line, a dog's diet is MOSTLY vegetarian. Finally, mother nature made these animals like this for a certain reason. Because that is what their bodies are designed to live on. If you start feeding them food that doesn't make their body work properly, then some thing is going to go out of whack! That's why Americans are so unhealthy (but I won't get into that).
In conclusion, I believe the lumps you are finding on your dog are mostly related to the diet you've been feeding him. Although, I don't exactly agree with giving your dog creatine and other supplements either. A dog's physiological make-up is completely different from a humans. If a supplement is made for a human, I doubt it is good for a dog. In fact, many supplements aren't even good for humans. I suggest you re-think what you're doing to your dog.
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| I too would like to know why a dog used for showing purposes cant use creatine?
In GSD masculinity is essential in males. So too is a muscular and dry and firm appearance. So why if creatine is found in muscles (animal muscles ) wouldn't this have the same effect as on humans.
If you could suggest a supplement that would assist it would be helpful. I am not talking about your average pet dog, these dogs run 5 - 10km a day.
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I cannot believe that you are feeding your dog that type of diet and giving him creatine - you must be the biggest moron I know! Clearly, someone like you does not deserve to have a dog - maybe the best thing to do would be to find another home for him because I cannot believe you haven't been reported for animal abuse yet!
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I don't think the person that gave response #4 should call Linda a moron. Fact is humans and dogs have been consuming creatine since, well, since there's been dogs and humans around. Both humans and dogs get creatine in the body in two ways. First, the body makes some creatine internally from amino acids. Second, creatine is found in foods, especially meats. Interestingly, the first major creatine study in America was conducted on dogs in the early 1920's at Cornell University.
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I would like to briefly respond to the person who wrote response #2 and anyone else that was misled by his/her ignorant ramblings. I have a B.S. degree in Zoology from Humboldt State University, and I can confirm that dogs are most definitely raw meat eaters.
Wolves (Canis lupus) are almost genetically identical to the domesticated dog (Canis familiaris), so similar that wolves and domesticated dogs can mate and produce viable offspring. Have you ever heard of wolf/dog hybrids? Last I checked, wolves and all other wild dogs kill and eat other animals on a regular basis. Many domesticated dogs will kill and eat other small mammals if given the chance. Most carnivorous land mammals are classified by taxonomists under the order Carnivora which includes the families of cats, dogs, hyenas, bears, and badgers (Felidae, Canidae, Hyaenidae, Ursidae, and Mustelidae). I have not heard of any of these animals cooking their meat before eating it though. Some of these animals are omnivorous in diet, meaning they eat both plant and animal matter, but none are strictly vegetarian! His/her notion of the rasping tongue found in the cat family is completely off base. It is true that this feature of the tongue will help remove some body tissue, but it can't possibly cut through tough, fibrous connective tissue found b/n bone and muscle. Nor is it a characteristic that separates meat eating animals from non-meat eaters! While in school I had to spend a considerable amount of time and energy scraping muscle off of bone using an extremely sharp scalpel. At no time did the raw meat just fall off the bone!
His/her observations of felines in the wild must be extremely limited. Watch any number of wild animal shows on TV and you can see lions, tigers, etc gnawing on flesh and bone with their molars (carnassials). Dogs posses similar dentition to that of cats, as they both eat meat. The digestive tract of a dog is very simple, which to any biologist would suggest a carnivorous or omnivorous diet. The digestion of plant material requires a much more complex digestive system than that possessed by dogs, (look at ruminant mammals like cows). Dogs will eat some grass, as the fiber in the grass can help with their bowl movements, but they do not gain much in the way of nutrition from it. Please do not be fooled by the pseudoscientific babble presented in response #2. His/her analysis of the dietary habits of dogs is grossly incompetent, and I would suggest he/she stick with his/her day job! He/she claims to have studied nutritional habits of animals for 12 years. I would suggest he/she go down to his/her local Jr. College and enroll in a semester long course in Zoology.
As for giving dogs nutritional supplements that were intended for humans; I would advise against it. A dog's metabolism is entirely different from that of a human, and one in good health, receiving plenty of exercise, and eating quality dog food should not need any dietary supplements to increase its stamina.
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Response #2 is possibly the most ignorant statement I have ever read. Dogs are naturally meat eaters. Do you think that dogs have always had dog food? Wild dogs randomly find bags of dog food right? That is stupid. Dogs descend from wild meat eating creatures. They have not always been domesticated. As for your tongue theory... that is BS. By the way.....don't give your dog Creatine.
jon
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I hope the original author of this message is reading these messages, because for the most part they all have the same theme: Why are you feeding your dog a nutritional supplement designed for humans? Humans and animals do not have the same bodies. Our bodies react differently to certain things, as do animals bodies. I'm sure you've all heard this example, although HIV is not the same thing as an supplement, certain monkeys are immune to the virus. Ever since this was discovered in the early 90's, scientists have been trying to find the link but have not, and probably won't, because we don't have the same bodies. Unless you want your dog to be the biggest and toughest looking dog on the block, it seems strange to me that you supplement its diet the way you do.
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First of all, you're crazy to feed your dog creatine. Second of all, their body systems are different from our body systems, so what's the freakin point of giving your dog creatine. YOUR DOG DOESN'T EVEN PUMP IRON IN THE GYM!!!! So if I were you, I would stop giving the dog creatine because it's pointless.
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Alright, first off. Does your dog really need to be all buff. I can't believe you would go to the extreme of giving him/her creatine. I truly believe you have lost your mind. Also in response to response #7. You had me laughing for about 20 minutes about the statement "Do you think wild dogs go out and randomly find bags of dog food?"
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By the way, what does your dog bench?
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Regarding response #8. To begin with, bringing up a subject like the human immuno deficiency virus has little to do with the initial comment made about the ludicrous creatine supplementation of their poor dog. To your credit, you do have a point along the lines of our bodies being different to other animal's bodies. However, it is not impossible for us to learn more about ourselves from the study of animals in their behavior and often even in their response to medical treatment aimed at resolving the consequences of having cancer, for example. Furthermore, I truly believe that it is possible for researchers to one day identify why it is that this certain breed of monkey appears to be immune to the HIV. One day it will happen, and it just might be through in depth studies on those very monkeys. SO THERE SMARTY PANTS!
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| I can hear the wolves now. "Let's go to the corn field and graze with our friends the deer. Ummmmm....this is good stuff. How about heading over to the wheat field after we are done here. Hey, let's go over to the county fair and get a little buttered corn on the cob."
Get with it...DOGS ARE CARNIVORES! The only grain/veggies they digest in the wild are from the stomach contents of the animal they kill for food. Forget about the creatine and just feed a natural diet.
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Firstly, all the responses on this topic have been pretty accurate. If you really ARE giving your dog creatine, I recommend that you stop immediately! I'm no expert, but any dog on a balanced and adequate diet should not need any kind of nutritional supplementation.
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OK, one easy way to find if things eat meat or vegetables is to look at cows. I can't remember the last time I went to my local farm and saw a cow with a set of teeth that would frighten me enough to not push him over. And yes, basically anything with any kind of sharp teeth can eat meat. That's my opinion.
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You say your dog is a working dog, perhaps you should work also; you'd have less time to indulge your neurosis. Your dog should eat what dogs have eaten for the past 1-2 million years, meat--that is to say the flesh of other animals. If other readers have a problem with that, they should vent to their support group.
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I think there have been some very educated and dog friendly people answering this woman. However, I refuse to believe she posted this message to see how many of us can slam her as deeply as some have. I absolutely love my dog and my creatine, except for the gritty texture. Although I probably would never give my dog a supplement of this nature, I would consider others if I felt they would benefit my dog. Don't get me wrong about feeding my dog something unusual, after all I did give her that stuff you put on their skin to kill fleas by making the skin toxic, but that was after we were literally infested with fleas and I exhausted all natural means of getting rid of them.
In my opinion, the medicine I gave my dog for her flea problem is 10x worse than this woman giving her dog creatine. Thanks to all the educated answers, I definitely appreciated them. Linda, when you post a message to a site that has potential weightlifters of the loser variety, you can assume there will be these thoughtless, uneducated, belligerent, and useless answers.
VBS
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